Recent Evolution Battle in Billings

http://billingsgazette.net/articles/2008/12/06/features/life/26-genisis.txt

By JEF SUTHERLAND
For The Gazette

Jef stated, "Somebody brought to my attention recently how much public information promotes evolution to children."

This very first sentence tells much. This man is a liar right off the bat. To his 'attention recently' give us a break Jef! This is a blatant lie. You are a great pretender to say you just recently learned about evolution!

Look at this article and one can see he is just another fundamentalist 'teaching the controversy" like no one has ever heard of it. How original Jef.

I was amazed to see the number of comments posted for this article. I noticed only one honest Christian, she admitted to what the whole mess is really about. The Christians want God in the public schools, of course their God that is.

The Christians are under the incorrect perception that people can not be moral without God (again their version of God). Not true, but that is the crux of the issue at hand. It is not really about evolution or science; it's about pushing the belief in God.

It has been proven all over the world, that the most religious nations are not more moral than the so called secular nations.

Like the infamous atheist Mr. Hitchens says when he challenges the faithful. "Name one moral thing a believer does that can not be done by a non-believer? He has not been given one example.

Abstinence not a waste per Barbara

By Barbara
The abstinence message is sound and can save lives, if heeded. Simply put: no sex, no sexually transmitted infections (STIs)."

Well duh, but not realistic

She then says
'People run stop signs and suffer the consequences of their actions. Does this make the stop sign’s message dangerous? Should we stop spending money on stop signs? Money spent on abstinence education is not a waste. What is a waste are the people who will die from HIV/AIDS because they didn’t heed the abstinence message.'


Reader Comments:

My comment was
An Abstinence ‘only’ program is as successful as AA. Only 5% never drink again.

Longinus
“Way to go Barbara! You have got my vote. “(Is she running for office? Probably, its preachers and politicians promote this ‘only’ option)

gfguy

“Interesting analogy to the stop sign. Yes, people who run the sign suffer the consequences. However, we do offer driver's education which helps to prevent accidents.
Burying your head in the sand and thinking that teaching abstinence only will solve the problem is naive at best. Giving them information to help them make careful choices is the best we can do.
Oh, and Ms. LaRue, it sure is nice to hear that you think of people with HIV/AIDS as a waste. You're just brimming with compassion. "


patriot wrote on Dec 23, 2008 7:45 AM:

“Barbara, your comments are well stated. Abstinence in conjunction with other programs to reduce STI's may represent the best way to combat HIV/AIDS. Planned Parenthood presents only their agenda and seemingly dismisses any other programs as not effective or worthy of funding. "

The Winter Solstice

Three local churches are offering a special “Longest Night” service on Monday night.
'Everyone, regardless of church background or lack of it is welcome'

This would be the last thing I would do for the Solstice, exactly because of my "lack of it"
Instead, at my place we are having a bon fire tonight. One and all are invited, even if you have or had a church background. I promise we will not be sitting around praying and singing hymes. It's a purely secular social event with no strings attached.

Doll

I will discuss this later.

To die on your own terms a right?

McGrath seeks suspension of right-to-die ruling

AG McGrath hopes to stop anyone or at least postpone people from using their right to die. He plans to prolong the suffering of terminally ill Montanans who wish to end their lives with medical assistance.

I quess he doesn't want anyone going to hell. Becasue of course in the bible it says suicide is wrong. In most cases it is, but in this situation it's called mercy. As usual the religious try use the bible too determine what is moral and what is not, when in fact it is far from giving good advice.

This may sound callous, but do people realize how expensive it is to die in the U. S. of A.? Why should a dying person pay big bucks to a hospital to keep them alive as long as possible against their will. That's callous and immoral.

Coming Out Gay in Montana

This is about Bridget’s Your Turn editorial in the IR 12/10/08

From this editorial, I learned that the Montana Legislature considered requiring all gay and lesbians to register as sex offenders. Outrageous! The last decade was a dark time under Republican rule.

Bridget said she was told by the clergy say she ‘must be silent and celibate’, and that her wish to marry another woman was wrong and made her ‘less deserving of God’s love’.
She said she despaired over this. I say she was disparaged.

I always wondered how or why people like her would want the love of a God such as this.

She despairs again over the passage of Prop 8 in California.
It is because of these laws and the public perception of gays why there is a higher incidence of substance abuse, depression and suicide in her social group. It’s true. But appealing to the “true” Christians by being a gay Christian doesn’t work. If you’re a Christian then one has to understand why the true believers are so against the gay community attempts at marriage.

She quotes the bible and pleads for people to ignore the Old Testament and only heed what Jesus says about our neighbors and the poor.

Such as, “love your neighbor as yourself”, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”, and to love God and to love our neighbors as we love ourselves.

She says, “We must reach across the imagined divides between “liberal” and “conservative” and honor and respect each other as humans.” It is and never will be an imagined divide. People have been killing each other over this so called imagined divide. It’s real and dangerous.

For generations and today many still question what Christianity is or means? There is a theory Jesus meant you and I must still follow the law and then I learned Paul claimed we are not to follow the law and the only way to salvation was through Jesus. This was his attempt to remove the Jews from his new religion. He wanted as little connection to the Old Testament as possible. Christianity was to be the religion for the gentiles. Today it’s common to hear the evangelicals call themselves Judeo-Christians. This way they can use the law to suppress the very people supposedly Christ set free.

This only goes to show how the ‘faithful’ believe whatever is convenient.

Bridget Whearty, a Helena native had a feature story about her marriage in California.

http://www.helenair.com/articles/2008/06/19/local/top/50lo_080619_marriage.txt

Dangerous legislation per Beth

By Beth Emter - 12/10/08
Montanans should be aware of very dangerous legislation currently sponsored by Max Baucus and Jon Tester — the Freedom of Choice Act (S.1173).

The Freedom of Choice Act is deceiving in its very title. FOCA would deprive Montanans, as well as the American people in all 50 states of the freedom we now have to enact modest restraints and regulations on the abortion industry. It would also counteract any and all sincere efforts by government to reduce abortions in our country. FOCA as it is currently written would take away parental consent laws, laws requiring abortions be performed only by licensed physicians and laws limiting particular abortion procedures like partial birth abortion. FOCA would recklessly disallow states the freedom to regulate abortion as their citizens see appropriate. Additionally, FOCA would require Catholic hospitals that provide childbirth and other health care services to provide abortions, thus shutting down health care facilities in some of Montana’s most remote communities.

Is this freedom? No. Is this choice for Montanans? No. FOCA is simply wrong for Montana. We cannot reduce abortions by promoting abortion.

Beth Emter

29 Hidden Valley Loop

Clancy

Company Christmas Parties

For some reason we are having our office Christmas party mid-January. It would be nice if they called it a New Years party. I wish all Christmas parties would become New Years Parties instead. I am not alone in this I am sure.
Supposedly attending a Company sponsored Christmas party is up to the employee. But, is it really? No! Peer pressure forces one and all to celebrate Christmas whether they like it or not. It is not good for your career if you do not play along.

I will from now on respond to "Have a Merry Christmas" with "Have a Happy New Year" not "Happy Holidays"

Assisted-Suicide in Montana

State plans to appeal assisted-suicide ruling
By JENNIFER McKEE - IR State Bureau - 12/10/08
Montana’s top court will make the final call on whether Montanans have a constitutional right to physician-assisted suicide.Attorney General Mike McGrath said Tuesday the state will appeal a recent Helena District Court ruling which upheld the right of terminally-ill Montanans to seek doctor-prescribed medications to end their lives.“Clearly this is an issue that needs to be decided by the (Montana) Supreme Court,” McGrath said Tuesday in an interview with Lee Newspapers.Helena District Judge Dorothy McCarter ruled late Friday that Robert Baxter, a 76-year-old Billings man who had suffered from leukemia for years, had the right to end his life using physician-prescribed drugs. McCarter held that the Montana Constitution, which guarantees both the right of privacy and human dignity, protected Baxter’s right to end his life.Baxter died of his illness Friday, before he found out about the ruling.Kathryn Tucker, of Seattle, legal director of Compassion & Choices, a national nonprofit patients’ rights group that was also involved in Baxter’s suit, said Tuesday she agreed with McGrath that the serious matter deserves review by the state’s highest court.
“We will urge the Supreme Court to affirm (the decision) and I think the chances are they will affirm it,” she said. “But I do think it’s important to have this be a state Supreme Court ruling.”McGrath said the state had not yet formally filed the appeal. He said lawyers expected to do so in the next few days.That appeal could last many months. In the meantime, lawmakers at next month’s 2009 Legislature will also take up the issue. Representative-elect Dick Barrett, D-Missoula, has sponsored a bill that would enshrine McCarter’s decision in state law and better define how physician-assisted suicide would work.Tucker said she thought it was important that lawmakers have such a discussion and begin to spell out how terminally ill Montanans exercise their right to doctor-assisted suicide. She said a reasonable waiting period is important, but cautioned on setting barriers too high.Barrett’s bill will originate in the evenly-split Montana House of Representatives, where it’s likely the bill could die on procedural grounds without the Legislature as a whole ever speaking on the issue.If that happens, Tucker said, Montanans will “still be able to make (an assisted suicide) request and physicians will still be able to write these prescriptions.” Physician-assisted suicide would then become “an unregulated right.”


Reader Comments:

thedukeofhelena wrote on Dec 10, 2008 6:27 AM:
" Let's hope this passes in the Montana SC. Being terminally ill myself, I and too many others should have the right to a physicians help to end our lives when they become too unbearable and painful. Why this has to be appealed in the first place tells me that there are still others out there who deign to tell me when and how I should live my life. Stop being so selfish and pass this constitutional right. "

I agree with the duke, the theocrats will fight this tooth and nail.

Sherry Jones cont.

I was lucky, and was able to see author Sherry Jones who wrote the controversial book "The Jewel of Medina" at Carroll College, Helena, Montana Thursday the 4th of December.Sherry is a Novelist, journalist and once was an Independent Record Reporter, and a Montanan.The publishing company Random House, self censored themselves and dropped plans for printing Jones' book because they were told “The Jewel of Medina” would offend Muslims and could “incite acts of violence by a small, radical segment.”Sherry was informed that a sorce within academics told them that it would be a "declaration of war" because the same person claimed the book as soft porn.This book controversy has been compared to the Salman Rushdie's, “The Satanic Verses.” He is calling Random House’s action “censorship by fear.” This is no known fatwa for Sherry, maybe that is only for heretics within the faith.It was only after Random house backed out, that a fire was started at the book’s publisher in Great Britain. They responded by postponing the publication in the U.K. But, Sherry told us that her book has been published in Serbia. She said a cleric there also called the book pornograhic and insisted it was pulled from the shelves and turned over to him. But, by the time the stores opened the next business day, they were sold out. Yeah!The book is now for sale in the U.S. and in other countries such as Germany, Denmark and Italy. Another 20 publishers worldwide have shown interest.Sherry has written a historical, fictional story that may have a profound impact with women in the Eastern world. Becasue of this, there were two security guards at the book signing for her protection. When asked if she was afraid she said No. She said we all die eventually. Nothing has happended so far, and she doesn't expect it will.The story is about A’isha bint Abi Bakr, Muhammad's youngest wife. I have only just started to read the book myself. It's too early to tell if I like it or not. I'm not a snobby reader, so I'm sure it will be a fine read. Sherry says her book is over 90 percent historically accurate. I like that. It took her five years of research to fill out the story, since there is next to nothing written about women of the past in the middle east. Not much better the western world. Men dominate history. Therefore this book is a feministic look back.Her next book will continue the story of Aisha after Mohammad's death and the civil strife that followed.Sherry has been called evil names by both American's who are anti-Muslim and the usuall suspects from the Muslim community. When asked if she found any conficts with her religious beliefs and those she wrote about. (I found it strange when the host pointed out to her that "father" so and so was in the room. Carol is a Catholic Collage) She said no, she then stated she had been very religious as a youth until her twenties and now she believes "God is Love".I sat there and blinked, and then it hit me! Cool! If it's true, because we atheists are told over and over again God is Love, so I thought. turn it around and that means Love is God therefore God is only a feeling, a human emotion and nothing more. Now I get how liberals see God. Rose colored glasses anyone?

So called traditional Marriage?

Marriage in the Bible?

Abraham, the great Jewish patriarch, slept with his servant when he discovered his beloved wife Sarah was infertile? Or Jacob, who fathered children with four different women. Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon and the kings of Judah and Israel—all polygamists.

The New Testament model of marriage is worse. Jesus himself was single and preached an indifference to earthly attachments—especially family. The apostle Paul (also single) regarded marriage as an act of last resort for those unable to contain their animal lust. "It is better to marry than to burn with passion"

Should anyone today turn to the Bible as a how-to script for a modern marriage? I think not

'The Jewel of Medina' to speak in Helena

By EVE BYRON - Independent Record - 12/03/08
Author Sherry Jones will speak at Carroll College Thursday evening. (Photo courtesy Mariah Jones.)
Novelist, journalist and former Independent Record Reporter Sherry Jones will be in Helena Thursday to present a lecture on her controversial book “The Jewel of Medina.”

Jones was invited to speak at Carroll College after professor Barry Ferst learned that the book’s initial publisher, Random House, dropped Jones because of concerns “The Jewel of Medina” would offend Muslims and could, according to Random House, “incite acts of violence by a small, radical segment.”

In fact, a fire was started in the building housing the book’s publisher in Great Britain by people opposed to the publication.

Those incidents led to a whirlwind of world-wide publicity, even before the novel was publicshed, with Salman Rushdie, author of “The Satanic Verses,” calling Random House’s action “censorship by fear.”

The Washington Post, The New York Times and The New Republic, as well as newspapers and magazines throughout the world, carried stories about the controversy.

The book eventually was published in Serbia, Germany, Denmark and Italy, and also was picked up by Beaufort Books, which started offering “The Jewel of Medina” for sale in the United States in October. At this point, 20 publishers worldwide have shown interest in it.
“When I heard of Jones’ book and the controversy surrounding its publication, I knew this book and the presence of its author in Helena would provide an excellent opportunity for my students and the community to consider inter- and inner-religious conflicts and literary censorship,” said Ferst, who teaches “Islam: Philosophy and Culture,” among other courses at Carroll. “It is valuable to the public to see the struggles an author goes through in producing an historical work that may have a profound impact on a current geo-political situation.”

Jones remains amazed at the hubbub surrounding her book.

“As an author, you expect criticism or bad reviews, but some of the stuff was so off the wall and so unfair; I never expected it, especially from people who hadn’t read the book,” Jones said.

She started working on the first draft in the winter of 2002, partly in response to the anti-Muslim rhetoric after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks in the United States. At the time, she was attending the University of Montana in Missoula and working part time at the Missoulian newspaper.

“I heard a radio essay by a Muslim woman that was very moving. She ended up saying that because of the treatment of women under Islam, she had to give up her religious faith,” Jones said Tuesday, speaking by telephone from her home in Spokane. “I thought that was just terrible. I thought something like that could happen in Christianity, if the fundamentalist faction of Christianity really took hold and turned back the clock on women’s rights.”

As Jones began looking into the role of women and Islam, she read stories of the Prophet Muhammad, who Muslim’s believe was the messenger of God, whom they call Allah.

She learned Muhammad had nine wives and four concubines, but could find few works translated into English that told of their lives.

Jones was particularly intrigued with A’isha bint Abi Bakr, who was born in 613 A.D. and engaged at age 6 to Muhammad, who was more than eight times her age. She became his favorite wife and after his death, led troops in the first Islamic civil war.

“I felt a lot of compassion for this young girl, the fact that this young girl grew up to be an amazingly strong, powerful woman. I was curious how that happened,” Jones said. “She went from being a girl controlled by men to a uniquely self-empowered woman.”

Jones used her 28 years in journalism to unearth as much information as she could, then based her fictionalized version of A’isha’s life on those facts. Six years and seven rewrites later, the book finally was published.

She’s quick to note that this is a fictional novel, made up in her mind about what it would be like to be a young girl married to a much older, powerful man, and living in a house with 11 other women vying for his attention.

The book portrays A’isha as a willful child initially focusing only on her own wants and needs initially but eventually growing and evolving into the mature woman who became a prominent figure in early Islam.

Since the book’s release, it’s been called everything from a “flawed jewel” to a “jewel of a story.” Some reviewers call it “solid historical fiction” and say A’isha is an unforgettable character, while others say it’s riddled with inaccuracies, distorting and sensationalizing history in order to get people to read the novel.

Even with all the controversy, Jones enjoyed writing “The Jewel of Medina” and already has penned the sequel, about the life of A’isha’s and other early Islamic figures after Muhammad’s death. It’s slated for publication in 2009.

“(A’isha) was a remarkable heroine in Muslim literature,” Jones said. “For me, A’isha was, and has been, throughout all the stress and difficulties of the past few months, an example and an inspiration.”

Reporter Eve Byron: 447-4076 or eve.byron@helenair.com

Washington D.C. Nativity Scene

The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that there cannot be a nativity
scene in Washington, D.C. this Christmas. This isn't for any
religious reason though.
They simply have not been able to find three wise men and a virgin
in the Nation's capitol. There was no problem, however, finding
enough asses to fill the stable.
[Thanks to Les Pourciau]

Area churches and vehicles vandalized

I would love to find these punks and bonk their heads together!

They are obviously teen trouble makers and what they are doing is harmful to the reputation of those like me. The church goers will automatically assume these kids who did this are atheistic, hate god, and evil. NOT!

Their angst is misplaced, when the kids wrote 666 on the wall, they blew it. Whenever there is any reference to Satan, the fundies go nuts. This is why they say atheists worship the devil. Ridiculous, but that's how they see it.
I might have to write a letter to the editor to defend us unbelievers against being found quality by association with these hoodlums..
I would also bet these kids come from a ‘good’ Christian home, maybe even go to the Christian High School. Either way, they are stupid brats and nothing more.


By ANGELA BRANDT - Independent Record - 12/02/2008

Vandals struck a Faw Road church over the weekend, causing more than $500 in damage.

The pastor arrived at the Fortress of Joy Sunday morning to find graffiti, according to Lewis and Clark County Sheriff Leo Dutton.

“God is dead,”(no, never existed) “Christianity is slavery” (trueish) and “666”(not something an atheist would write) among other sayings were sprayed in black paint all over the outside of the church.

Another church on the 100 block of Valley Drive, the Church of Nazarene, fell victim to a recent spree of criminal mischief, Helena Police Chief Troy McGee said. Police received a report of broken-out windows from the church early Sunday morning.

These crimes follow a spree of vandalism to buildings and vehicles in the Helena area.

Authorities have received more than 50 reports of broken windows across the city in the past two weeks. Vandals have mostly broken windows and taillights on vehicles, apparently with rocks and possibly baseball bats, McGee said.

Investigators are still determining whether the incidents are related.

Reader Comments:
chamules wrote on Dec 2, 2008 6:02 AM:
"You forgot the vandalism at the Helena Christian School High School where their bus was spray painted with anti-Christian graffiti. Sick. Helena used to be a nice town "

This is a typical knee jerk reaction. Chamules is wrong, this is still a nice town.

Church Universal and Triumphant

Another example that religion is a scam.


Church shifts to retail evangelism as message of Armageddon fades
By MATTHEW BROWN - Associated Press - 11/30/08
A religious sect in Montana that has maintained a massive bomb shelter near Yellowstone National Park for the last two decades in preparation for Armageddon, in Corwin Springs. In the background is King Arthur’s Court, the sect’s new chapel.
CORWIN SPRINGS — They’re still ready for Armageddon at the Church Universal and Triumphant, a religious sect that for almost two decades has kept a bomb shelter stocked for 750 people deep in a forest near Yellowstone National Park.

Church leader Elizabeth Clare Prophet has been silenced by advanced Alzheimer’s disease. And her followers say they’ve given up the assault rifles and armored vehicles they amassed in the late 1980s — part of a post-nuclear war ‘‘re-emergence’’ plan that brought national notoriety and a federal investigation.

Scrambling to stay current as it reaches its 50th anniversary, the church has transformed itself into a New Age publishing enterprise and spiritual university. But still in the background is its ‘‘insurance’’ against the end — the shelter buried beneath a hillside on the sect’s 7,500 acre Royal Teton Ranch.

There, more than 20 feet underground, 22,000 hours of video and audio recordings of Prophet survive. They’re stacked alongside periodically rotated, floor-to-ceiling crates of canned fish, dried meats, grains and cooking oils.

‘‘Like Benjamin Franklin said, an ounce of preparation and prevention is worth a pound of cure,’’ said Lois Drake, the church’s co-president.

On the grounds of the ranch — the picturesque mountain property just outside Yellowstone the group purchased from billionaire Malcolm Forbes — most of the decrepit trailers and worker’s shacks that once housed 700 of the church’s most faithful are gone.
In their place has risen a large, two-story office building. Behind the walls of a quiet lobby furnished with antiques, workers in cubicles busily translate Prophet’s words into 27 languages.

Nearby, a sparkling new chapel known as King Arthur’s Court hosts regular conferences such as the recent ‘‘Prayer Vigil for the God-Victory of the Elections and the Economy.’’

Church wares, available online or from its gift shop, range from a wallet-sized ‘‘Chart of Your Divine Self’’ — $1.25 apiece — to a framed portrait of Elizabeth Clare Prophet for $239.95. The church’s publishing arm, Summit University Press, has sold more than 3 million books in the last decade.

The church’s parent organization, Summit Lighthouse, was founded by Elizabeth Prophet’s first husband, Mark, who spent years touring and preaching from a gold-painted Trailways bus.

After his death in 1973, Elizabeth Prophet eventually relocated the sect from California to Montana. She preached from an altar crowded with icons from the world’s major religions, mixing western philosophy and mysticism with a dose of Reagan-era patriotism — and, by the mid-1980s, warnings of nuclear war with the Soviet Union, according to her daughter Erin, who has since left the church.

To ensure its survival, Erin Prophet said, the church spent an estimated $20 million to build the massive shelter near Yellowstone and many smaller ones in surrounding communities. As members amassed weapons for post-apocalypse protection, Elizabeth’s Prophet’s then-husband, Ed Francis, and at least one other church member were convicted of violating federal gun laws after purchasing some of the guns illegally.

In March 1990, thousands of church members who had descended on the Yellowstone area entered the shelters to await the end. In a new book called ‘‘Prophet’s Daughter,’’ Erin Prophet said her mother had predicted Soviet missiles were on the way. Church leaders today insist the incident was a drill.

After the predictions of doom went unrealized, the church gave up its firearms under an agreement with federal authorities. As Elizabeth Prophet’s charismatic presence faded, most of her followers left or moved into the nearby towns of Livingston and Bozeman.

Observers estimate that fewer than 10,000 remain, from a peak of 50,000. Church leaders refuse to give a number, saying membership information is ‘‘proprietary.’’

Those adherents say their mission is no longer to absorb Prophet’s message, channeled from on high, but to disseminate her words through books, CDs and online tutorial services.

With spiritual teachings now offered over the Internet, the long-term goal is to expand beyond the church’s ‘‘physical community’’ and create an ‘‘online community’’, said its second co-president, Kate Gordon.

‘‘It’s time to get in touch with Facebook,’’ she said.

At a recent Sunday service at the church’s teaching center in Bozeman, about 30 of the still-faithful gathered in a room hung with portraits of Jesus, George Washington and St. Germain. A table at the front of the room displayed small statues of Buddha and the Virgin Mary. A sword and dagger lay near a replica of the Statue of Liberty.

The church’s Rev. Carla Groenewegen invoked Christopher Columbus and Camelot’s legendary wizard Merlin as spiritual guides, then led the congregation in singing ‘‘Battle Hymn of the Republic.’’ A video on a large flatscreen TV showed Elizabeth Prophet delivering a 1992 sermon in Atlanta — closing her eyes and channeling messages from the ‘‘ascended masters’’ with a trancelike voice.

While Prophet’s warnings of Armageddon never materialized, church members say a quick glance at the news — global financial instability, terrorism, wars in Iraq and Afghanistan — suggests the doom she forecast is still unfolding.

‘‘What we believe is that it has been happening for a number of years. It’s not over,’’ Drake said.

She refers to the shelter as ‘‘an insurance policy.’’

Its main denizen these days is Michael Galloway, a church employee and coach for the local high school ski team. He’s maintained the shelter for the past 15 years — making sure the stacks of food don’t spoil, flashlights have fresh batteries and mice populations are kept in check.

Inside sleeping compartments that line a long, narrow corridor are bunkbeds. Many are stacked with bags of clothes and other personnel effects from church members who never returned in the wake of the 1990 prophesy.

As Galloway exited through the shelter’s heavy steel doors — past shipping containers stocked with camping supplies and other equipment — he said the facility was stocked with enough food, water and fuel to last 750 people for 49 days.

‘‘Even after all these years I don’t find it spooky at all,’’ he said as he stepped into the outside world. ‘‘I find it peaceful.’’

Be Gods License Plate

A Wayne County woman is moving forward with a lawsuit against the Bureau of Motor Vehicles even though the agency reversed a decision that disallowed the renewal of a license plate that reads "BE GODS."

Liz Ferris said what started as a personal belief is now about her constitutional rights, 6News' Sarah Cornell reported.

"I associate it with the Bible verse Romans 14:7, 8," Ferris said. "No one belongs to himself. If we live, we live onto the Lord. If we die, we die unto the Lord. So whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord."


When I first saw the words "Be Gods" I first thought she meant we should Be Gods. without an ('s) its hard to tell what she is trying to say.

I am torn over personalized plates, I had the navy veteran plate once, but opted with a regular plate when I last registered my car. Its amusing to drive up behind someone and try and figure out what it says, most are very cryptic. I wonder how much time is wasted by state employees processing these orders for plates? Maybe they need to raise the rates to make money or get rid of them.
At least with the veterans plates, part of the cost goes to the veterans burial fund. The number of plates now for non-profits is growing, I hope that continues. I don't have one now, because, silly me, none match the color of my car and I don't like the new veterans plates, you can't tell which branch you served unless you bend over behind the car and take a closer look. I hope they change it back to the large obvious anchor for the Navy.

The best thing Montana has done with car registrations, is now my husband and I will have all but one of our vehicles permanently registered. All but my Outback are over 11 years old. Good thing because my hubby has 2 Chevelles, 2 Chevettes, a Chevy 4X4 3/4 ton truck, an old beat up snowmobile and a broke down ATV. He may have more vehicles but they are probably stashed at a friends place without my knowledge.

Boys and their Toys!!! Luckily we don't have to register the 3 tractors he also picked up over the last 5 years. At least I don't think we have to register those. OH, and I forgot the 2 old trashed out pick up trucks he is sitting on. One has a for sale sign on it and the other he is tearing apart for the big block engine, to add to his collection of other big block engines he already has, transmissions, rear ends,.....I keep telling him he needs to buy crappy land and open a junk yard. Oh and I forgot we have a large car trailer and smaller one we register. He also has begun a new collection, old tractor implements. "Yard Art" he calls it.

Wow, I went off on a tangent didn't I. ....And the 1960's camper trailer parked up in Lincoln....

I wonder if he has all his guns registered?

Majority backs library on gay sex book

By Independent Record - 11/03/08
Last week’s Question of the Week asked whether the library should have censored the book “Joy of Gay Sex.” In a huge turnout, as befits this election week, a majority of readers came out against censorship.Among 1,705 votes cast in this unscientific poll, 914 said the library was right to retain the book. On the other side, 731 wanted it removed.

Some readers’ comments:•
Any book that has graphic illustrations of sex should not be sitting on the library shelf. There is nothing wrong with reading and learning about sex. The problem is obviously about WHO should have access. Children are not mentally and emotionally ready for this information. Mature adults who are interested in this topic should definitely have access to these books. Isn’t it possible to put them behind the counter and let the readers request them?•

No. Censorship of literature no matter how controversial the book may be is abhorrent and should not be condoned in our community. The evangelical members of our Christian community who use the library are under no obligation to peruse this book. If they do and take umbrage at its contents, that does not give them the right to dictate to the general public what kind of reading material can be displayed on the library’s shelves.•

I’m not feeling inclined to vote for the next library levy. I don’t want to be part of purchasing and providing pornographic material.

"• The book should stay! If people want to show their concern for the well-being of children, they should get involved in local youth programs, not parade their intolerance of homosexuality by targeting a book for censorship.•

Yes. I would not consider this censorship. The library has to set a policy of what is inappropriate for a public library. The library considered this book appropriate. It is the public’s right to be able to question the actions of a public institution and I feel the use of the term censorship distorted and inflamed the public involvement process.

Atheist Aphorisms

Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers
Honk If Your Religious Beliefs Make You an Asshole
Intelligent Design Makes My Monkey Cry
Too Stupid to Understand Science? Try Religion.
There’s A REASON Why Atheists Don’t Fly Planes into Buildings
“Worship Me or I Will Torture You Forever. Have a Nice Day.”­ God.
God Doesn’t Kill People. People Who Believe in God Kill People.
If there is No God, Then What Makes the Next Kleenex Pop Up?
He’s dead.
It’s been 2,000 years. He’s Not Coming Back. Get OVER It Already!
All religion is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination, and poetry. Edgar Allen Poe.
Viva La Evolución!
Actually, If You Look It Up, the Winter Solstice Is the Reason for the Season
I Wouldn’t Trust Your God Even If He Did Exist
Cheeses Is Lard. Argue With THAT If You Can.
People Who Don’t Want Their Beliefs Laughed at Shouldn’t Have Such Funny Beliefs
Threatening Children With Hell Is FUN!
GOD - APPLY DIRECTLY TO FOREHEAD!
Jesus Told Me Republicans SUCK
God + Whacky Tobacky = Platypus
God Doesn’t Exist. So, I Guess That Means No One Loves You.
When the Rapture Comes, We’ll Get Our Country Back!
Q. How Do We Know the Holy Ghost Was Catholic? A. He Used the Rhythm Method Instead of a Condom.
You Say “Atheist” Like It Was a BAD Thing
I Love Christians. They Taste Like Chicken.
Science: It Works, Idiots
“Intelligent Design” Helping Stupid People Feel Smart Since 1987
I Found God between the Sheets
I Gave Up Superstitious Mumbo Jumbo for Lent
My Flying Monkey Can Beat Up Your Guardian Angel
If God Wanted People to Believe in Him, Then Why Did He Invent Logic?
Praying Is Politically Correct Schizophrenia
ALL Americans Are African Americans
I Forget - Which Day Did God Make All The Fossils?
I Was an Atheist Until the Hindus Convinced Me That I Was God
The Spanish Inquisition: The Original Faith-based Initiative
If we were made in his image, when why aren’t humans invisible too?
JESUS SAVES….You From Thinking for Yourself
How Can You Disbelieve in Evolution If You Can’t Even Define It?
Q. How Can You Tell That Your God is Man-made? A. He Hates All the Same People You Do.
Every Time You See a Rainbow, God is Having Gay Sex
I Went to Public School in Kansas and All I Got Was This Lousy T-shirt and a Poor Understanding of the Scientific Method.
The Family That Prays Together is Brainwashing the Children
Oh, Look, Honey another Pro-lifer For War
Another Godless Atheist for Peace and World Harmony
God is Unavailable Right Now. Can I Help You?
When Lip Service to Some Mysterious Deity Permits Bestiality on Wednesday and Absolution on Sundays, Cash Me Out. Frank Sinatra.
No Gods. No Mullets.

Anne Rice xfav author

I am disappointed, another article dissing atheism today

'the deserts of atheism' !! this just pisses me off


And in this new 245-page memoir, Rice presents her former life as vampire writer as that of a soul-searching wanderer in the deserts of atheism; as someone akin to her most famous literary creations -- Lestat, her "dark search engine," Louis the aristocrat-turned-vampire and Egyptian Queen Akasha, "the mother of all vampires."

"I do think that those dark books were always talking about religion in their own way. They were talking about the grief for a lost faith," she said.

In 2002, Rice broke away completely from atheism -- nearly four decades after she gave up her Roman Catholic faith as the 1960s started. It happened when she went off to college and found her peers talking about existentialism -- Martin Heidegger, Albert Camus, Jean-Paul Sartre. Religion, she writes, was too restrictive to the young Rice. Too out of step.

Yet, religion had to come back into her life, she writes. For her, it was something she'd have to face up to again like an absent parent or a long-lost love child or Banquo the ghost in "Macbeth."

By the late 1990s, when she went back to Mass, Rice -- the author whose books sold in the tens of millions and who had recharged Hollywood's appetite for vampire-inspired horror -- had fallen on hard times.

Her husband, poet and artist Stan Rice, died of a brain tumor in 2002. And she had become victim to diabetes.

Always over-the-top and beyond the rational, she writes that her return of faith was preceded by a series of epiphanies -- many while on travels to Europe's cathedrals, Israel and Brazil. In one episode, when she visited the giant Jesus statue above Rio de Janeiro, she writes that she felt "delirium" as the clouds broke and revealed the statue.

Her professed revelations recall the religious intoxication she describes of her childhood.

GAPAC

This is very bad news for the GAPAC group, now anyone who holds an office and even is seen talking to anyone from this group will be labeled as Godless. To make matters worse there is no comments section below this article for anyone to try and defend GAPAC or Ms. Hagan. This is a despicable add not because she was seen in the company of atheists but because it is a lie that Ms. Hagan is Godless. And even if she was, it should not make a difference. One doesn't have to be an unbeliever to support those who are fighting to keep our government secular.

I met Wendy Kaiminar at my first Humanist Conference almost 10 years ago. She is a good godless person. A Heroine


CNN) -- Kay Hagan erupted in anger Thursday over a television ad from Sen. Elizabeth Dole suggesting Hagan is "godless."

Kay Hagan, seen here in September, has served in the North Carolina state senate for 10 years.

"I think Elizabeth Dole has just gone to the lowest of the lows," Hagan said of the ad during an appearance on a talk show on WPTF-AM in Raleigh, North Carolina. "This is an attack on my Christian faith."

Hagan, who described herself as a Sunday school teacher and an elder at a Presbyterian church in Greensboro, North Carolina, urged Dole to "pull this kind of despicable ad."

Hagan, who is challenging Dole's re-election bid, filed an application in a Wake County, North Carolina, court Thursday, seeking permission to file a complaint within 20 days, after the election is over.

"The advertisement purposely misstates facts about the plaintiff," said the three-page application, which was filed in District Superior Court.

In the 30-second ad, a narrator says that a leader of the Godless Americans Political Action Committee recently held a "secret fundraiser" for Hagan.

The ad then shows members of the group, which promotes rights for atheists and the separation of church and state, declaring that neither God nor Jesus exists.

Don't Miss
Commentary: Mudslinging to get elected
"Godless Americans and Kay Hagan," the ad continues. "She hid from cameras. Took 'Godless' money. What did Kay Hagan promise in return?"

The ad ends with a picture of Hagan and a voice that sounds like hers declaring, "There is no God."

But the application said Hagan never made that statement or accepted money from the group.

Lawyers representing Dole and her campaign defended the ad Thursday as "100 percent factually accurate and truthful." The campaign for the GOP incumbent said it based its claims on Hagan's attendance at a fundraiser in the home of a GAPAC adviser.

"Kay Hagan attended a fundraiser event in Massachusetts in September held in the home of two anti-religion activists, Wendy Kaminer and her lawyer husband, Woody Kaplan," Dole's attorneys said in a letter to Hagan's lawyer.

They described Kaplan as a founder and advisory board member of the GAPAC. The letter said Kaplan and Kaminer were advisory board members of The Secular Coalition for America, which it described as "the national lobby for atheists, humanists, freethinkers and other nontheistic Americans with the unique mission of protecting their civil rights."

The lawyers also said Kaplan gave $2,300 to Hagan's campaign.

"This is politics of the worst kind, and I know it has been rejected by North Carolinians at every level," said Hagan.

Polls suggest Hagan -- a Democratic state senator from Greensboro who began the race at a major financial disadvantage to Dole -- is slightly ahead of the incumbent.

Greed per Micheal

The six deadly sins
By Michael Rissman - 10/31/08
Lust, gluttony, greed, sloth, wrath, envy, pride: which doesn’t belong? Greed of course. Greed is good. The others are all deadly sins. Greed is not good, of course: not good for the economy and not good for the soul. Free markets and free societies work when individuals act in their enlightened self-interest. Greed is in no one’s enlightened self-interest. On that secular humanists and those of all faiths agree.Of late in the United States, greed has been used to justify obscene transfers of wealth, not among classes but among generations. What could be more craven than running huge deficits to make our generation wealthier at the expense of the next?Obama seems to be wakening young Americans from torpor induced by the notion that greed is good. I wish for them a return to the classic values: prudence, temperance, courage and justice.But if McCain wins, I’ll make my peace with his belief that paying taxes is un-American. I’ll get to have my cake and eat it to. I won’t be greedy when I stop paying taxes; I’ll be a super-patriot.Michael Rissman

Dole's 'Godless' Ad

There is nothing wrong with being God Free! Darn it

In a dirty campaign ad from Elizabeth Dole alleges her opponent is Kay Hagan is "Godless."

Supposedly the Godless Americans PAC held a fundraiser for Kay Hagan,” the ad also claims the group declares God and Jesus are not real. Hagan was said to have hidden from cameras, took godless money,” (How could it be godless money with "Under God' on all of U.S currency?) Dole's ad asks the threaten question “What did Kay Hagan promise in return?” I'm sure implying evil deeds.

"There is no God." is a quote in the ad that sounds like Hagan, but she never said that.

Hagan's did attend a fundraiser at he home of an advisor to the 'Godless Americans’ Pac that promotes rights for atheists. Who else attended?

In response to the ad, Hagan said she did know even know about the Godless PAC and said the fundraiser in question had more than 40 hosts, such as Sen. John Kerry. She asked her lawyers to issue a cease-and-desist order on the ad.

Hagan said. “This is politics of the worst kind." This is a fabricated, pathetic ad."

Hagan then fought back, by saying she was a Sunday school teacher and have the church confirm it.

SOB Stokes Back in the News

Stokes is Rush on meth

The Constitution Party and the Libertarian Party in bed together. Gross out! Stokes is a bigot in Kalispell who moved here from out of state and makes a living pushing peoples buttons. He was given all kinds of press for way too long, and now someone has gone and done it again. I wish someone like me could get the attention he does. (Maybe not)

Its too much fun watching the Republican party falling apart. Capitalism and Christianity at its very best

“People are just fed up with the mainstream parties,” said John Stokes, owner of Z-600 AM radio station in Kalispell. “Folks see this country is on a downward slope, and not adhering to the Constitution.”
Give us a break Stokes, a few crazies like you that is.


Ron Paul could play spoiler Nov. 4
By MATT GOURAS - Associated Press - 10/29/08
AP Photo/Matt Gouras - Z-600 AM radio station owner John Stokes poses outside his radio station in Kalispell on Oct. 23. He uses his talk show to advance Ron Paul, who is on the ballot in Montana under The Constitution Party banner and could steal votes from Republican John McCain. Montana is typically safe territory for Republican presidential candidates — President Bush won the state by about 20 points in both 2000 and 2004, and only two Democratic presidential candidates have carried the state since 1948.

But Obama staked out Montana early on as a potential battleground state and he's sticking with it to the end.

KALISPELL — Along a stretch of Highway 93, signs supporting former GOP presidential candidate Ron Paul almost outnumber those of the party’s presidential nominee, John McCain.

It’s been months since Paul officially left the race, and yet a series of circumstances has the Texas congressman right in the middle of the presidential race in Montana. Political observers say Paul, on the ballot as a third-party candidate, will likely draw some votes away from McCain. (appreciate that guys)

And if the race is close, Paul could be the difference. (like the Stan and Tester race)

“Ron Paul is the wild card,” said David Hart, who oversaw Paul’s campaign in Montana during the primary. “A lot of people are not happy with that.” (Stokes loves pissing people off)

In parts of western Montana, Paul attracts independent-minded (irrational)voters who are drawn to a libertarian message. Only in Montana does Paul appear on the ballot as a Constitution Party candidate.

Stokes has erected a large “Ron Paul Revolution” sign outside the station and uses his talk show to promote Paul. He said he wouldn’t be surprised if Paul gets 8 to 10 percent of the vote in Montana on Nov. 4.

None of this would have been possible without Paul’s supporters, who put his name forward as the Constitution Party of Montana candidate. Paul later asked the secretary of state’s office to remove his name from the ballot, but state officials said they couldn’t. (Hysterical)

Paul has not been campaigning in the state and has even asked supporters to write in Chuck Baldwin, the national Constitution Party candidate. Paul did not respond to requests for an interview.

During the GOP primary, some of Paul’s strongest support came in Montana. He received about a quarter of the vote in the state’s June primary — even after it was clear McCain was the party’s presumptive nominee.

Now he could play spoiler to McCain, whose lead in the polls in Montana has diminished. A recent MSU-Billings poll had the presidential race within the margin of error, with Paul drawing 4 percent.

Democrat Barack Obama has been sinking money and resources into Montana in attempt to turn the traditionally red state blue. McCain has largely ignored the state, although the Republican National Committee will begin independently airing ads in Montana this week.

“Absolutely he (Paul) will pull some votes from McCain,” said MSU-Billings political scientist Craig Wilson. “It potentially could make it competitive.”

Gov. Brian Schweitzer agrees. The Democrat is supporting Obama and believes Paul could help Obama carry a state that has backed the Republican presidential candidate all but two times since 1948. The last time a Democrat won Montana was in 1992, when third-party candidate Ross Perot siphoned some votes from Republican George H.W. Bush.

“That’s why they are tied,” Schweitzer said, referring to Paul’s popularity in Montana.

Schweitzer said those who vote on the gun issue will have trouble backing either Obama or McCain. The Montana Shootings Sports Association has told members that a principled voter should choose Paul over McCain.

The McCain campaign has brushed aside worries about Paul, insisting the race is between McCain and Obama.

Hart, who worked for Paul during the primary, said plenty of people in Flathead County will still vote for Paul. While many Paul supporters have said they will vote for McCain, others want to choose “principle over party,” Hart said.

Hart still receives requests for yard signs, and he often obliges by handing out leftovers from Paul’s primary campaign. Hart, who is also getting more involved in the local Republican Party, understands there could be some hurt feelings if Paul steals some votes from McCain.

“If Obama were to carry Montana, they are going to point a finger at me,” he said. “But the reality is they should be looking in the mirror.”

Why do Republicans keep saying they are finanical & social conservatives, when they are obviously not. What was that happened recently, thats right, a 700 Billion handhout, 2 privately contracted wars, and to top it off abortion is still legal. Wow! Impressive

Parade draws fire for dropping 'Christmas'

My Gawd! Its not even Halloween yet and the war against Christmas has started. Christmas is 2 months away. What ever happened to the 40 days of Christmas? Even 40 days is way too much in my opinion. Christmas Eve and Christmas day should be the only two days anyone should have to hear the words "Merry Christmas"
I will stay out of the stores and buy xmas/soltice gifts online to avoid being constantly reminded I am NOT a Christian.



Fireworks company is pulling out of event word was dropped from event (GOOD)

updated 7:28 p.m. MT, Thurs., Oct. 23, 2008
PATCHOGUE, N.Y. - A famed fireworks company is pulling out of a holiday boat parade because "Christmas" was dropped from the event's name.

Fireworks by Grucci won't lend its sparkle to Patchogue's Nov. 23 parade — decorated yachts on the Patchogue River — because the organizers have renamed it the Patchogue Holiday Boat Parade. It was the Patchogue Christmas Boat Parade last year, when the Grucci company donated $5,000 worth of fireworks.

The company's vice president, Philip Butler, who has criticized the secularization of Christmas in the past, said parade organizers were "using all the themes of Christmas and plagiarizing all those themes."

Organizers in the Long Island town said the parade has had several names over its roughly 15-year existence. The name was changed again this year after complaints that the use of "Christmas" seemed to make the parade less inclusive.

"When I think about fireworks, I don't think about Christmas anyway," Mayor Paul Pontieri said. "I think about the Fourth of July."

The venerable Grucci company is famous for providing spectacular fireworks displays at major national celebrations. It is based in Brookhaven, not far from Patchogue

birth control is 'murder' sermon

The 6th commandment "thou shall not kill" (Exodus 20:13; Deuteronomy 5:17), is better understood to mean "you shall not murder
MURDER
1: the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought2 a: something very difficult or dangerous b: something outrageous or blameworthy
MALICE
1 : desire to cause pain, injury, or distress to another 2 : intent to commit an unlawful act or cause harm without legal justification or excuse
KILL
1 a: to deprive of life : cause the death of b (1): to slaughter (as a hog) for food (2): to convert a food animal into (a kind of meat) by slaughtering2 a: to put an end to b: defeat , veto c: to mark for omission ; also : delete d: annihilate , destroy 3 a: to destroy the vital or essential quality of b: to cause to stop c: to check the flow of current through4: to make a markedly favorable impression on 5: to get through uneventfully ; also : to get through (the time of a penalty) without being scored on 6 a: to cause extreme pain to b: to tire almost to the point of collapse7: to hit (a shot) so hard in various games that a return is impossible8: to consume (as a drink) totallyintransitive verb1: to deprive one of life2: to make a markedly favorable impression

FORT WORTH - The Southern Baptist Convention is reacting after News 8 showed a message from a Southern Baptist preacher teaching Fort Worth seminary students that the birth control pill equals murder.

In a controversial sermon to students at the Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Dr. Thomas White, acting as the student services vice president this month, preached that birth control is murder and called attempts at family planning selfish.

"Some of you are involved in that exact same sin," he said.

Brett Younger, a Mercer University theology professor and former senior pastor at Broadway Baptist, said he believes it's absurd to think Christian couples should hope for 10 children and they have a responsibility to "thoughtfully, prayerfully consider what's best for their family, and the world."

The Ethics & Religious Commission president for the Southern Baptist Convention reacted Wednesday to Dr. White's preaching.

"I don't believe prudent planning is rebellion against God's will as long as couples accept God may cause them to have unplanned pregnancies anyway," said Richard Land.

But, Land said he ultimately agrees with Dr. White on the subject of the birth control pill.

"It stops ovulation, meaning it stops the eggs from being released," said Kathryn Allen, a spokeswoman for Planned Parenthood, while explaining how the pill works.

The controversial part comes into play if an egg is somehow released, which is when the pill "can" prevent a fertilized egg from implanting.

The view that when this happens it constitutes murder is what Allen said worries her as it gains increasing attention. However, she has estimated there is still little support.

Meanwhile, Land has issued a statement on his thoughts on the subject.

"The Southern Baptist Convention is not opposed to the use of birth control within marriage as long as the methods used do not cause the fertilized egg to abort and as long as the methods used do not bar having children all together unless there's a medical reason the couple should not have children," he said.

Obama Wins Scholistic Election

Obama Wins Scholastic News Election Poll

Almost a quarter of a million kids voted

Barack Obama won with 57 percent of the vote, to 39 percent for John McCain.

The kids voted by ballot or online at www.scholastic.com/news. The poll closed October 10.

Since 1940, the results of the student vote have predicted the outcome of the election all but two times. Once in 1948, kids chose Thomas E. Dewey over Harry S. Truman and in 1960, the students picked Richard M. Nixon rather than John F. Kennedy.

Palin and the Alaska Independence Party

Crabby1 wrote on Oct 22, 2008 8:17 AM:
" I wish those "journalists" would write an in-depth story about the traitor Alaska Independence Party, whose sole purpose is to susceed (sp) from the Union, as well as the FACT that both Palins were dues-paying active members. "


Crabby is both wrong and right
This group is affiliated more with the Constitution Party today and had more Libertarian leanings in the past. Originally the party wanted to secede from our great nation, but now is more interested in forming a more theocratic state.
The Constitution Party!, Booooooooo!

I could tell right off the bat, I did not like Sarah Palin. The more I learn about her the more I dislike what she stands for. It blows my mind McCain picked her for VP. She is a wild card. She herself was not a member of AIP, but her husband was and she probably would have if it did not hurt her chances of becoming Governor.

Very Very Creepy People

Library votes to keep book

I am sure this will not be the last time we hear from Mr. Cohen. But, it will be tough for him to find a more controversial book to protest. I know he loves Halloween and Christmas, so I expect a letter to the editor soon about these pagan/secular holdiays.


Library votes to keep controversial book
By ALANA LISTOE - Independent Record - 10/22/08
Carole Byrnes, chairwoman of the Lewis and Clark Library Board of Directors, said banning books from library shelves is censorship.

Byrnes, along with the other four board members, voted to retain the book, “The Joy of Gay Sex,” in the library’s collection with unrestricted access at a meeting Tuesday night.

After reading the book Byrnes acknowledged that the pictures and descriptions were graphic, but she viewed it as an instructional, education manual.

The request to remove the book from the library’s circulation came from Helena resident Paul Cohen, who said the book was “pornographic.” He said the library is negligent of providing a “safe place” for children and adolescents when they have access to the material.

The library’s collection review committee and Director Judy Hart reviewed the book and library policies and ultimately recommended keeping the book, saying it is the library’s obligation to provide information to all segments of society.

Dissatisfied with the decision, Cohen appealed to trustees in August and a public hearing was held last month.
The board received and reviewed about 200 written submissions on the matter.

Library policy says that no material will be excluded from consideration because of race, nationality, religion, sexual orientation, political or social view of the material, the author or the intended audience. The policy also states that no materials will be removed because of controversy.

Cohen said the policy is in error if it says anything can be put on the shelves for anyone to look at.

He said after the meeting he wasn’t surprised by the decision to retain the book, however said the notion that things, such as books, can’t be judged is “absurd.”

Board member Jesse Franzen said according to policy, library patrons are free to select or reject materials for themselves or their own minor children, but not free to restrict the freedom of others to read or inquire.

“Only parents and guardians, not the library, have the right to guide and direct the reading, listening and viewing choices of their own minor children,” Franzen said the policy states. “I believe the library policies have been followed impeccably with grace and great respect, and again I thank our staff. I vote in approval of our director’s decision.”

Hart said she was pleased with the decision and how the process was open for all participants.

She said board members read and listened to all policies, written and oral testimony and based their decision on policies.

Voting Biblical Values per Milton

By Milton Crum, 915 Saddle Drive - 10/01/08
I vote on the basis of biblical values as in these examples. (1) Feeding the hungry: Democrats supported the Hunger Relief Act. (2) Care for the sick: Democrats cared with Workers Compensation, Medicare, and Medicaid. (3) Justice for the oppressed: Democrats passed the Civil Rights Act and Voting Rights Act. (4) Relief for the poor: Democrats responded with Social Security, Unemployment Compensation, Earned Income Tax Credit for low-income families.

Psalm 72 prays for rulers who practice justice for the afflicted, needy, and oppressed. Baker’s Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology sums it up, “to the extent that God’s people collectively obey his commands, which include caring for the poor, then individual needs will be met. God provides enough for all his people to live a decent life; the question is if they will distribute his resources equitably ... God will judge people on the basis of how they have cared for the needy in their midst ...” The Democratic party and its candidates have done better walking this walk. Republicans have favored the wealthy, arguing that their wealth would trickle down to the rest of us, but it doesn’t.
________________________________________
Reader Comments:
al wrote on Oct 1, 2008 9:39 AM:
" Mr. Crum, I understand and sympathize with your views, and know that you are speaking of the love of Christ, but when you say that people should "vote on the basis of biblical values", you're opening up a big can of worms.

The nation is in the mess it's in today partly because a lot of people voted their biblical values, and pulled the lever for George W. Bush.

The Bible is infinitely subjective. As somebody once said: The Bible is like a man; if you torture it long enough, you can make it say almost anything. Plus, no matter which way you read it, the Bible is full of violence, death, hatred, oppression and war.

I appreciate your sentiments, Mr. Crum, but reason, honesty and rationality are better values to keep in mind when voting. "

MtMadeMan wrote on Oct 1, 2008 9:07 AM:
" Charity is from person to person.

Government mandated charity is theift. It's only purpose is to make some dependent on the government and buy their votes.

Democrats support of home ownership to those that could not afford houses is what caused the crash of Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae. "

organicmommy wrote on Oct 1, 2008 8:47 AM:
" Voting Democratic based on Biblical values is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard! What a contradiction. So all God cares about is helping the needy? Yes, that is a large part of Christian and Biblical values and the Bible contains many passages that stress the importance of helping those less fortunate than us, but you failed to mention other strong Biblical principals that the current Democratic party seems to ignore. What about the scriptures that state homosexuality is a sin? Or the one that says "Thou shall not murder"? Apparently you think God has no problem with the millions of babies that have been murdered through legal abortions since Roe vs. Wade - something the Democrats have fought to remain in place? Where is the justice for those children who never had a chance to live? And I don't think God would agree with the blatantly anti-Semitic associates a certain Democratic Presidential candidate has kept. If you truly think that the only thing God will be judging us on is how much money we've given to charity, or how much time we spent volunteering at God's Love, you need to spend less time reading Bakers Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology and more time reading your Bible. "

electstat wrote on Oct 1, 2008 8:25 AM:
" Don't Dems also support the woman's right to an abortion? What's the bible say about that one? "

AnimalLover wrote on Oct 1, 2008 7:07 AM:
" IMPOSSIBLE, You must vote Republican to be faithful to God!!! Just kidding, it's actually nice to see someone that believes in God and doesn't blindly vote Republican. Thank you for restoring some of my faith in people. "

Colton wrote on Oct 1, 2008 7:00 AM:
" Just 3 points; (1) President Lincoln freed the slaves. Lincoln was a Republican. (2) Reverend Wright's (B.O.'s minister for over 20 years) racial hatred while of biblical proportions, doesn't seem very charitable. (3) God does not care who you vote for as the popular vote is worthless in Presidential elections. Only the electoral votes matter. "

Remove the book per Sally

By Sally Essex, 1889 Dry Gulch Drive - 09/29/08
It is a sad day when the library agrees to include in its selection of books one on gay sexual practices falling within the description of pornography.

In an age when sexually transmitted diseases run rampant and are denied, when teenagers experience increasing confusion in finding “their way” and many adults abdicate responsibility for guidance, it is hoped the library would weigh in with discernment and sound judgment.

C.S. Lewis has an apt insight: “Virtue — even attempted virtue — brings light; indulgence brings fog.”

A decision to place sane limits on book selection also constitutes good fiscal management, I would suggest. As a tax payer who influenced others to vote for library support during the last election, it is believed it acts, at all times, in the public interest. I can only hope that those responsible for these decisions display the clarity and courage required to honor the trust the public places in them.

Reader Comments
thedukeofhelena wrote on Sep 29, 2008 9:17 AM:

" Here's another thought Sally. You might as well have me removed from my hometown of Helena for being gay too. It's basically what you're really saying and what you really want. Not very wise. Try it and see what kind of Pandora's Box you open. "

al wrote on Sep 29, 2008 8:35 AM:

" Since Ms. Essex has judged the book in question ("The Joy of Gay Sex") to be pornographic, we must assume that she has read it. If so, is she now somehow corrupted because she knows, in specific detail, the ins and outs of homosexual sex? Is she now questioning her own sexuality?

I suspect she would say that reading the book (if in fact she has done so)
has not effected her in any adverse way. If so, her arguments for banning the book might sound a bit hollow.

Plus, despite Ms. Essex's assertion about "good fiscal management", I doubt that the library will go broke stocking the latest gay sex guides. Give it a rest. "

electstat wrote on Sep 29, 2008 6:25 AM:

" Wow. The library carries books! What a great concept! An even better one, don't check out the book if you don't want to read it. Don't use the library as a babysitter if you haven't taught your children whatever family values you choose. As a tax payer, maybe you should be asking for any religious material to be removed so that we keep that separation of church and state. "

A Secular Foundation CYDFI

How many shoes, shirts, school supplies and toys does it take to fill a 40-foot shipping container? And how long will it take to raise $8,000 to send that container to Africa?William Mansfield, an employee at the Helena Community Credit Union, has less than two weeks to accomplish both, and he’s banking on the generosity of local citizens to help finish the job.

Financial donations can be made at Children and Youth Development Foundation International, P.O. Box 5685, Helena, MT 59604.

An Honest Obit

DOUGLAS -- A celebration of life for James William "Jim" Adams, 53, will be held at a later date.

He died Tuesday, Sept. 9, 2008 at Memorial Hospital of Converse County in Douglas.

Jim, who had tired of reading obituaries noting other's courageous battles with this or that disease, wanted it known that he lost his battle. It was primarily as a result of being stubborn and not following doctor's orders or maybe for just living life a little too hard for better than five decades.

He was born June 8, 1955 in Garrison, N.D. the son of James William and Ruby Helen (Clark) Adams.

He was sadly deprived of his final wish, which was to be run over by a beer truck on the way to the liquor store to buy booze for a date. True to his personal style, he spent his final hours joking with medical personnel, cussing and begging for narcotics and bargaining with God to look over his loving dog, Biscuit, and his family.

He would like to thank all "his ladies" for putting up with him the last 30 years.
During his life, he excelled at anything he put his mind to. He loved to hear and tell jokes and spin tales of grand adventures he may or may not have had.

He is survived by five sons, Jeremiah Adams and his wife, Nicole, Mica Olivas, Wade Olivas, Brice Simpson and Cole Adams; sister, Jerri Giegerich; two ex-wives, Vickie Harrison and Marilyn Williams; four grandchildren; two nieces; and two great-nieces.

He was preceded in death by his parents and a brother-in-law.

In lieu of flowers, he asks that you make a sizeable purchase at your favorite watering hole, get rip roaring drunk and tell the stories he no longer can.

Gorman Funeral Homes - Converse Chapel of Douglas is in charge of the arrangements.

A missing line per Bob

By Bob Cypers, 6635 Sleeping Giant View - 09/23/08
Ms. Marshall had it right, she just left off one line.“Public libraries shouldn’t be used as political tools to advance liberal social agendas.” The next line should read “or the religious far-right agendas.” If you chose to remove a book because you don’t agree with it on religious or political beliefs, then let’s remove any book that pertains to religion. The Bible must go! I don’t think there is a place in our libraries to promote religion.If you don’t want your children to read “The Joy of Sex,” then don’t let them. And they’re not going to experiment with anything else; after all, all of our kids are perfect.It’s called freedom to read what we want; get over it or remove Moby Dick because it shines a bad light on a cripple. FREEDOM!


I completely agree with Bob

Don’t print derogatory ‘opinions’

By Robert Bayuk, 801 N. Warren - 09/21/2008
When a patron enters the Lewis and Clark Library, peruses the bookshelves, discovers materials he or she finds offensive, wants it removed from circulation because it offends their delicate sensibilities and then wants everyone to wallow in their misery, polite society has a term for such a person: propagandist.

The Independent Record, however, has bigger fish to fry than worrying about a reprobate attempting to censor books and I will spell it out for all of you: Homosexuality is genetic and it has been proven scientifically. So the IR must now stop publishing all letters to the editor, feature articles and “Your Turn” commentaries which debase gay men and lesbian women as diseased or monsters, degenerates, or any other derogatory terminology used to cast aspersions upon them.
The IR would not publish hateful letters about someone’s skin color, eye color or genetic background. So it can now cease publishing such letters about our gay brethren and, instead, begin publishing articles about our ever-evolving humankind.

Libraries are no place for censorship

By IR Staff - 09/18/08
Quite a controversy has been stirred in the past few weeks over a single book at the Lewis and Clark Library.

The book, “The Joy of Gay Sex,” was petitioned to be removed from the library’s shelves after a Helena man stumbled upon it on one of his frequent visits to the library.

In a public hearing Tuesday night, the testimonies of supporters advocating to keep the book slightly outnumbered those who wanted it removed from the shelves.

The debate over this book, which has been available at the library since the early 1990s, resides over whether the content of the book belongs in a public library setting, paid for by taxpayer money, for all to see.

But the heart of the argument goes beyond the content of a single book and points to the type of resource a public library should be.

And it should be a place free of prejudice.
That means making available books that serve a wide variety of interests. A library should be the vehicle to learn, the portal to information.

Much like a newspaper, a library should be a reflection of the community in all the books and services it offers.

On the eve of Banned Book Week, Sept. 27 to Oct. 4, the only national celebration of the freedom to read, it’s relevant to note the history behind the challenge of books in libraries, schools and bookstores.

Thousands of books have been challenged over the years, for reasons ranging from violence or sexuality, profanity and slang, racial and social.

It’s interesting also to look at some classics that have banned from libraries in the past:

-- “The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn” by Mark Twain

-- “Forever ...” by Judy Blume

-- “Catcher in the Rye” by J.D. Salinger

-- “Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows” by J.K. Rowling

-- “Beloved” by Toni Morrison

Indeed, nearly every book on the library shelf could potentially offend or disgust a reader. And there are some subjects which have no place anywhere.

Yet it would be a far greater disservice to a community — and to democracy — to have a library that censors what people can and cannot see.

Reader Comments:
PaulCohen wrote on Sep 18, 2008 12:44 PM:
" In testimony given at the most recent library board meeting I addressed the canard of this being a free speech and censorship issue. You can see my testimony at www.thepathoftruth.com, on the Notice Board, along with a summary of testimonies from the first board meeting with commentary. More from this week's board meeting is in the works.

The IR should know better that to stake out such a position. Come on, people, you won't even let someone write a letter to the editor here that mentions p...orn...ography, yet you champion keeping a book in the library that has vile depictions of homosexual orgies. Do you also disallow the use of the word "hypocrites"?

I said many things in an interview granted to Alana Listoe, very little of which made it into your paper, and what did was out of context. And you have the nerve to disallow discrimination based on standards of decency whereas you exercise discrimination based on prejudice against decency and godly reason? Shame on you.

Skosena, you say you are a "bible believing christian." You are nothing of the sort, except by your own false definition. Jesus Christ laid down His life to deliver people from their sins, but you are in agreement with providing information that validates them in sin, even laying a trap for those not yet ensnared. You are worse than a sodomite.

Al, who appointed you to preach your brand of "morality"? You contradict yourself. You also confuse terms. What you call freedom is lawlessness. Freedom brings life, but lawlessness death. Your free tongue is lawless, evilly surmising my motives, even stating them as fact without evidence. I have no desire whatsoever to try to protect you from the consequences of your sins. God forbid that I should try to deny you the destruction you demand. You fully need and deserve to reap the fruits of your ways, as you do even now and will.

Nevertheless, I speak the Truth for the sake of all, and should any of you be ashamed of your conduct and repentant, I would be glad of that. "

patriot wrote on Sep 18, 2008 11:07 AM:
" The IRs opinion concerning the removal from the library The Joy of Gay Sex seems a little contradictory. The second to last paragraph, Indeed, nearly every book on the library shelf could potentially offend or disgust a reader. And there are some subjects which have no place anywhere. So, how do we define nearly. By definition, is the IR going to be the Censor and make the determination of what is appropriate and not offensive. Why not place the book along side copies of Playboy and Playgirl to be fair to people of all sexual orientations. Or the library can have separate sections, Fiction, Non-Fiction, Straight Sexually Oriented People and Not so Straight. Ardent Christians are opposed to the ardent liberals, somehow we should be able to compromise.
Its not surprising the IR has responded to this controversy with an opinion that is not very well written and fails to articulate the true meaning of freedom of speech and the press. I would like to thank the IR for affirming my impression of the IRs journalistic mediocrity. "

cest moi wrote on Sep 18, 2008 10:11 AM:
" This situation serves the families of Helena by bringing to parents' attention the quality of literature at Lewis & Clark Public Library.
Conversely (or not - who knows?), this situation lets young children know the quality of literature at Lewis & Clark Public Library.
But let's keep hammering this censorship issue - after all, it's all about choice, and we want our children to make well-informed choices; especially about sex. And if children can't get information from their parents or their churches regarding morality and life choices, then it's the public libraries' responsibilty to provide the necessary resources to help shape your children's lives.

I stand by my comment yesterday encouraging families to have their children wash their hands after visiting the Lewis & Clark Library. "

skosena wrote on Sep 18, 2008 9:08 AM:
" I am a bible believing christian...I am morally opposed to the gay life style. That being said....I think the book should STAY... I want our library to serve and educated all kinds of interests. There are those that do not agree with my faith....or hunting...or having children...but we should not and can not dictate to one another what we believe or embrace. And as a parent it is my job to monitor and police what my children read and where they browse in the library. "

al wrote on Sep 18, 2008 7:58 AM:
" Kudos to the IR for taking this public stand against the most recent attempt at library censorship. The self-appointed moralists behind such efforts to censor are less concerned about "protecting society" than they are about furthering their own agendas and aspirations. Freedom-loving people must never fail to confront them and deny them. "

Colton wrote on Sep 18, 2008 7:50 AM:
" Question? What is the IR point of view on current library Electronic Access Policy? Specifically paragraph 4 - "All Internet resources accessible through the Library are provided equally to all library users."

Does this mean the IR condones men viewing explicit pornography at a computer station next to an 13 year old girl trying to complete a homework assignment at an adjacent computer?

Or has fear of censorship has replaced common sense? "

monkey wrote on Sep 18, 2008 7:49 AM:
" It's nice to see this from the Library Staff. I'm sure no one will be surprised when you vote to keep the book, regardless of how many of us parents send in comments that we don't want that trash in our library. And good job trying to compare the joy of disgusting gay sex to The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn. You've just spurred me on to encourage every parent I know to oppose this book. Obviously it's not going to matter how many do, your "staff" has their mind made up. SAD. "

It really is no one else’s business

By W. Craig Heymann, 1618 Lyndale - 09/17/08
Vice presidential nominee Sarah Palin recently delivered a baby with Down syndrome. Unlike most women, Palin chose to carry the pregnancy to term, endearing her to flocks of single-issue conservatives.

We’ve also learned Palin’s 17-year-old unmarried daughter is pregnant (that “abstinence only” thing didn’t quite work out) and has also made a choice — to become a young mother. Unlike many unmarried pregnant teenagers, Bristol has a loving family with whom to consult.

Conservatives are right about one thing: These matters are nobody’s business but the Palins’ and that’s precisely the point — they would deny these choices to you.

Republicans believe Big Business should be freed of “intrusive” regulation while simultaneously advocating that the most intimate aspects of your personal life be subject to religiously influenced government coercion, to wit: Asarco, W.R. Grace and even Derek Brown’s construction company should have the unregulated right to pollute your air, your home and your water, but your most personal decisions should be subject to religious scrutiny — nay, criminal prosecution.

Note to Christian conservatives: Your moral position is not as virtuous as you think. Your efforts to save so-called “dead babies” will result in real dead women. Ask any woman over 60.

Ban the Bible

If anyone gets to pick which books to toss out of the library if found offensive, I first suggest banning the bible. Its full of descriptive sexual acts, murder and mayhem.

Because of this so called word of God, for many generations; Jews, Muslims, Native Americans, Africans, Homosexuals, Women, Heretics...... all have been killed because this book says its ok to do so. The killings have subsided, but today many use it to wantonly discriminate



Public voices opinion over
By ALANA LISTOE - Independent Record - 09/17/08
Mike Cronin, of Helena, testified that the public library has an obligation to provide all material to clients and does not have any obligation to serve as parents.

He was one of about 20 people who spoke at a public hearing Tuesday night in support of keeping the book, “The Joy of Gay Sex,” at the Lewis and Clark Public Library.

More than a dozen people testified for removal of the book. Helena resident Wayne Beckman was one of those individuals saying the books showed immorality.

“People die from this,” Beckman said while holding up a picture he printed from the book, adding it causes HIV.

The request to remove the book came from Paul Cohen, of Helena, who found the book on one of his frequent visits to the library in February. Per library protocol, the book was reviewed by the library’s collection review committee, which recommended keeping it. Library Director Judy Hart accepted their recommendation of retaining the book saying that it is the library’s obligation to provide information to all segments of society.

Cohen testified that the library does not have its own mind.
“It’s here to serve us, rather than us serving the library,” he said. “Any Helena citizen can purchase it and keep the book at home — no one is being denied the freedom of speech.”

Many supporters of Cohen said the material is pornographic and shouldn’t be purchased with taxpayer money. While opponents said it’s not up the board or the community to judge what the informational needs of individuals are. Several opponents of removing the book suggested the library create a section where access to material is limited to adults.

Bernadine Abbott-Hoduski, who worked on a recent campaign for the library mill levy, said in order to get the people of Helena to vote favorably she had to promise the library will not discriminate.

She said she doesn’t feel that her fellow citizens, the library or the board should be permitted to tell her or her children or grandchildren what they can read.

“Every citizen needs to be treated with respect,” Abbott-Hoduski said.

The book has been in the library’s circulation since 1993, with several replacement copies purchased as new editions were printed, most recently in November of 2007. It was checked out three times before removal for the review procedure.

Because Cohen challenged the decision by Hart, the Library Board of Directors held the public hearing on the issue. They had no dialogue with attendees or fellow board members at the meeting and made no decision.

Nedra Chandler, a public-meeting moderator from Helena, facilitated the hearing. She enforced a time limit for each testimony (three minutes), as well as prohibited booing or clapping.

Written comments will be accepted at the library until Oct. 3 at 4 p.m. Comments have a limit of one page per person.

A decision is expected at the Oct. 21 board meeting.

Reporter Alana Listoe: 447-4081 or alana.listoe@helenair.com

Reader Comments:
rlabelin wrote on Sep 17, 2008 9:55 AM:
" I think Paul Cohen should read more books. Might I recomend farenhieht 411. Or maybe he will want it out of the library too as most facists would. "

naturalblonde196 wrote on Sep 17, 2008 8:25 AM:
" Just have a section of the library behind the checkout like in the convenience stores that have an X-rated section. Only adults can check them out. I for one don't want my children to be able to just pick it up and look at it. "

akraft9 wrote on Sep 17, 2008 8:07 AM:
" Keep the book! "

greenanvil wrote on Sep 17, 2008 7:44 AM:
" By all means the library should keep the book in circulation. There are books in the library about cooking and smoking meat, how to prepare meals with meat, and the vegans and vegetarians are not protesting the presence of those books. There are books in the library to help backyard mechanics work on their cars. I've not heard of a mechanic from a local garage protesting the presence of those books. This wasn't about censorship. It was about hate-mongers picking a fight, jamming a stick into the hornet's nest to see what happens. Don't make the public library a place to spread your hatred and fear. "

gun961960 wrote on Sep 17, 2008 7:27 AM:
" Wayne Beckman....here people are having a dialogue on a sensative issue and you step up with mis-leading information that is just plain bigotry. What you could of said was that unprotected sex can cause HIV....but what you chose to say instead was that gay sex causes HIV...which is now been proven over and over to be something from the past. You sir are a fear monger, a bigot, and other names that are unnecessary to point out. The leading demographic for contracting HIV now is young white heterosexuals!!! I still don't understand why the moral police is reading this book? Like I said if you don't wish to know the joys of gay sex then perhaps you should not read the book??? Just a thought. "